Of all the things to do while in Maui, you wouldn’t think that getting the best history lesson I’ve ever had would be one of them. But of the week spent in Maui, having the privilege of sitting in during Zale’s conference and hearing the truths about our Founding Fathers (especially so close to our Independence Day) was amazing and in my top favorites of what we did during our trip!
During Zale’s National Litigation Academy sponsored by the Alliance Defense Fund, they had a three part session presented by David Barton of WallBuilders. This was the most fascinating history lesson I’ve ever received. Talk about having facts to back up what you’re teaching, this organization has the original documents that our Founding Fathers wrote during the time that the Constitution and Bill of Rights was written. Letters to each other, journals, minutes, you name it, they probably have it.
I encourage you to check out their website and learn the truth about Separation between Church and State. Learn the truth about our founding fathers being men of God instead of atheist or agnostic as we are led to believe now. Learn the truth about the history of our nation, not the watered down or altered version that so many want us to believe. Learn the truth about why this great country was formed to begin with. Learn the truth about the sacrifices our founding fathers made to ensure the freedom of future generations. Including ours. Let their pain, suffering, and sacrifice not be in vain because we are too lazy or scared to stand by their example and continue the fight of our religious freedoms. As citizens of this great country, it’s our responsibility to carry on their work, and one that shouldn’t be taken lightly.
I pray that God will continue to Bless America, and as one of my spiritual mentors once said, America, let’s start Blessing God!
For starters, most (though not all) of the Founding Fathers were deists. Deism posits that there is a God, but he/she doesn’t have any impact on the world beyond creating it. God set things in motion and then turned it over to us.
Secondly, who cares what religion or philosophical bent defined most of the Founding Fathers anyway? That was then; this is now. A nation, just like any other sort of entity, grows. It moves forward. Entities that don’t move forward become static and stale — and they eventually die.
What this means is that it’s immaterial if the Founding Fathers were Buddhist, Christian or atheist. Their religious and/or philosophical underpinnings really don’t impact life in America today. Back then, many of them owned slaves. Does that mean we should each own one or more slaves today?
Dear Rambling Taoist,
Thank you for reading my blog and leaving a comment. I am not a historian, not even close, but I do know the truth when I see it, especially when it’s been proven to me. If, in your opinion, our Founding Fathers were just “deists”, than I encourage you to do more research to discover for yourself that they were, in fact, believers in God our Father. Their documents were signed “In the year of our Lord”, and some took it one step further and signed things “In the year of our Lord, Christ”. They weren’t talking about Budda, or any other idol. They were talking and writing about our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ.
(Taken from BibleGateway.Com) In John 14:6, Jesus Himself said this:
Jesus answered, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.” John 14:5-7. Jesus is our only way to salvation. It’s not at all immaterial if the Founding Father’s were believers in other “god’s”. Because there are no other god’s, there is only ONE true God and I pray you will seek Him and only Him so you can experience His Love, Grace, and Mercy in a life changing way that only He can provide. It’s not about a “religion”, it’s about our Founding Father’s being followers of the one true Christ, and that is what this country was originally built on.
As for your question about slaves, of course I don’t believe anyone should own slaves. Once again, dig a little deeper into the lives of our Founding Fathers to get more facts about their ownership of slaves and how they went about securing the freedom of those slaves. WallBuilders is a great source for the real facts about our history. I pray you will come to know the truth about our history, but more importantly, I pray you will find the truth about our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ.
Blessings to you! Callie
I think you missed my chief point. While the supposed research of Wallbuilders is dubious, at best, it really is immaterial what our Founding Fathers thought or didn’t think. Nations, like individual people, grow with age. Just because a group of people thought one thing at a fixed point in history doesn’t mean such thinking is cast in stone.
For example, most children (at some point in their lives) believed in the Tooth Fairy, Santa Claus and the Easter Bunny. Based on your supposition in this blog post, each life should be governed by these early beliefs. If a 40 year old man or woman loses a tooth, that person should place it under their pillow in the expectation that a quarter will appear there in the morning.
It is in this same vein that I brought up the question of slavery. Most of our early leaders (Washington & Jefferson to name but two) owned slaves. Washington, in fact, owned several slaves while serving as our first president. Black people were not counted as individual humans viz-a-viz the US Constitution.
If what the early leaders of our country believed was cast in cement, then blacks would have not been emancipated by Lincoln because that would have contradicted the beliefs of our Founding Fathers. But blacks WERE emancipated because a nation, like each individual, evolves. We progress in our thinking and understanding of the world around us. We cast off ideas and principles that no longer serve the common good.
Finally, if it makes you feel good, then you can pray for me until the cows come home. For my part, I happen to agree with Thomas Jefferson who wrote, “I have examined all the known superstitions of the world, and I do not find in our particular superstition of Christianity one redeeming feature. They are all alike founded on fables and mythology. Millions of innocent men, women and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined and imprisoned. What has been the effect of this coercion? To make one half the world fools and the other half hypocrites; to support roguery and error all over the earth.”
Wandering:
Jesus is the way, the truth and the life, no man comes to the Father accept through Him.
Whether you like it or not, there is absolute truth and it is that that God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob is the one true God. Our founding fathers knew this. Don’t believe me? You, yourself, take the time and effort to go read all their writings yourself and stop believing what the godless modern politically correct philosophy tells you. Deists? That’s an absolute lie.
Interesting that you have adopted Taoism. Its from eastern Asia. Look up the Chinese symbol for Garden. Guess what, it’s a woman and a snake. The Garden of Eden wasn’t a legend and God is not the Tooth Fairy. Stop running from God. God loves you and has forgiven you. Stop searching out mystical, spiritual extremes and turn to Him. Our time here is short. Stop waisting it on religions of men and return to the one true God.
On slavery? Most of the founding fathers were opposed to it. It was prevalent in much of the world at the time and was finally dealt with.
Its interesting that you pick Thomas Jefferson. Typical. He was the most liberal of the 56 signers of the Declaration, and yet he would still be considered a “right winger” by today’s standards. Do you honestly think that the other 55 believed just like he did because you want them to? Do you believe the other 55 signers are just irrelevant because you can’t twist their words around to fit the “Separation of Church and State” agenda? Why don’t you take some time and learn about Benjamin Rush, John Quincy Adams and the rest. If you take the time to learn, your eyes will be opened to the Truth.
Ok fine, lets hear from TJ:
“The doctrines of Jesus are simple, and tend all to the happiness of man.”
“The practice of morality being necessary for the well being of society, He [God] has taken care to impress its precepts so indelibly on our hearts that they shall not be effaced by the subtleties of our brain. We all agree in the obligation of the moral principles of Jesus and nowhere will they be found delivered in greater purity than in His discourses.”
“I am a Christian in the only sense in which He wished anyone to be: sincerely attached to His doctrines in preference to all others.”
“I am a real Christian – that is to say, a disciple of the doctrines of Jesus Christ.”
Wandering – I pray that the hounds of Heaven will continue to pursue your heart until you return to the one true path. “Come to me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you and learn from me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls.0For my yoke is easy and my burden is light.”
God wants you to stop wandering and return to Him. Stop fighting against that which you know is true.
Zale
Zale,
From my perspective, God is as real as the Tooth Fairy. So, I’m not fighting against that which I know is true. I think the premise is patently false.
I have no problem whatsoever if YOU wish to believe it’s true. Each person has the inherent right to decide what path each wishes to follow. I do have a problem, however, with this idea that the US is solely a Christian nation. If you take a look at the polls, more and More Americans are turning away from Christianity and there are a significant number of us who believe in other faiths or no faith at all.
In a secular nation, people are free to believe or not believe what they want. In a religion-infused nation (think of Iran), those who do not believe in the “official” doctrine are discriminated against and repressed. I would prefer that the US not follow Iran’s lead in this area. How ’bout you?
Rambling:
In a Christian nation, people are free to choose what they believe. You are free to choose what you believe.
Your assertion that the US would be like Iran is inherently flawed in that Iran was not established on religious freedom.
The “secular” nation you propose is actually, ultimately, hostile toward religion, primarily Christianity.
Now, you can state that God is as real as the Tooth Fairy. Look around you. The Tooth Fairy did not create you and the world around you. Evolution? Absurd. You think fate or coincidence or an undirected primordial ooze wove your brain and retina together so that you could think and type on that keyboard. You’re smarter than that. Quit running from what you know to be true. You wouldn’t carry on this discourse if you hadn’t thought this through a bit. Stop running from God. Surrender to His word.
Now, I don’t adhere to the theory of “the last to speak wins”. Should you feel the need to argue or continue to debate, that fine. Understand, God is not a myth or some element of an existential existence. He’s more real than you or I and he wants you to stop running from Him. You’ve known him before. I’m betting you’ve been burned by a church. Remember that God is not the cause or the source of your pain, its sin. Probably sin in someone else’s life that came into contact with yours, I’m guessing through a church. Deal with those hurts and pains and return to Him. He loves you, regardless of whether or not you wish to acknowledge Him.
Zale
“Your assertion that the US would be like Iran is inherently flawed in that Iran was not established on religious freedom. ”
According to the premise of the original post, Callie is arguing that the US wasn’t established on religious freedom either.
“The “secular” nation you propose is actually, ultimately, hostile toward religion, primarily Christianity.”
I can understand WHY you would consider it hostile since far too many Christians want to substitute the US Constitution for the Bible. We wouldn’t allow that.
I look around me and I see no need to believe in an imaginary being. Consequently, I find it hard to run away from something that doesn’t exist.
And you’re wrong about being “burned” by a church. My church families of the past were good people and we enjoyed good fellowship. I simply came to the point in my life when all the inconsistencies and contradictions of the Christian mythology added up to a sum that defied credulity. I decided that I didn’t need to believe in the fairy tales in order to embrace life for what it is.
I could just as easily turn this around toward you. Quit clinging to the idea that you’re a poor wretched soul and set yourself free. Walk your own path.
Dear Rambling,
If your statement that my original post is arguing that the US wasn’t established on religious freedom is really what you took away from my post, I would encourage you to read it again. Because that is exactly why this country was established, And I think I’m pretty clear on that.
And just a side note, it’s an amazing sense of freedom to know that we are all sinners, we are all “poor wretched souls”. But that by God’s Grace and Jesus’ sacrifice on the cross, we are forgiven and saved to live forever in the freedom that only comes from God.
Blessings,
Callie
Rambling Taoist (Trey Smith),
Let me start at the bottom and work my way up.
I agree with the final paragraph of your reply to Zale in that the United States is certainly a place where all should be free to possess and express personal beliefs. And so did our Founding Fathers. That is why our Constitution was designed not to grant the right of free speech and expression but to guarantee that right. And this inalienable right most certainly includes an individual’s belief as to religion, whether for or against.
I even agree with some of your statements in the second paragraph. In a free society like ours, each person does possess the right to decide for themselves what path to follow. However, that does not mean that each and every path available is equally valid. And yes you are correct in that our American society is becoming more and more secular and in my opinion more hostile to Christianity. I even agree with your statement regarding the “idea that the US is soley a Christian nation” if you mean as I think you do that the US was not designed as a theocracy. It wasn’t. Again our Founding Fathers were sure to guarantee the right to freely worship or abstain from worship.
However, the historical record of our country’s founding provides overwhelming and irrefutable evidence that our Founding Fathers believed that government should not be hostile to religious faith, but instead should actively encourage religious faith among its citizens, and specifically the Christian faith. Unfortunately, the secular revisionists have convinced many Americans, through sheer repetition of the lie, that the “wall of separation of Church and State” prohibits any and all intersection of government and religion.
The truth of the matter is that Thomas Jefferson mentioned this figurative “wall” as he sought to assure the Danbury Baptists that the federal government would not impose a State religion as had been done in England, but instead would support and encourage all Christian denominations, whether Baptist, Methodist, Anglican, Quaker, etc. You see, the “wall of separation of Church and State” was intended to be applied to the Establishment Clause of the First Amendment, not to the Free Exercise Clause. As Jefferson and other Founding Fathers intended, the “wall’s” effect would be to keep the State out of the Church,. The “wall” was never iintended to keep the Church out of the State..
It is obvious that the true historical record of our nation’s founding is under attack by secular revisionists whose goal is to rewrite that history while minimizing the major role that God and Christianity had in the founding and the first 150 or so years of the US. The revisionists main tactic is outright misrepresentation and deception and they have been successful in convincing many Americans that our Founding Fathers were mainly secularists including atheists and agnostics with a Deist here and there. But for anyone who cares to know the truth, all it takes is a little unbiased and impartial research and study to read the treasure trove of authentic documents that exist to this day and that reveal the true story.
The first sentence of your first reply to Callie is a complete falsehood. An out-and-out revisionist’s lie. Whether you meant it as such or have just been gotten to by the revisionists, I don’t know. But the truth of the matter is that while a few of the Founding Fathers were Deists, the vast majority were Christians. Revisionists are so predictable in that they always revert to pulling out a quote or two from Thomas Jefferson and Benjamin Franklin, the two most irreligious of our Founding Fathers. But read the whole of their writings and the writings of their contemporaries about them and you’ll see that they themselves were certainly not hostile to Christianity. And when you turn from Jefferson and Franklin to the rest of the Founding Fathers, you’ll find an overwhelming majority of men who were vocal and devout followers of Jesus Christ.
To answer your question “who cares what religion or philosophical bent defined most of the Founding Fathers anyway?” I do. My wife does. Callie does. Zale too. And so do millions of our fellow Americans. It is critical for citizens to know and understand the details of how and why our country was founded. And those details were greatly influenced by the religious faith of the Founding Fathers. Our nation didn’t come into existence by accident. It wasn’t just a random, lucky occurrence. The Founders had an inspired plan that would not have seen fruition had they been secularists. And one of my life missions is to oppose the secularist revisionists wherever they are as I seek to promote historical accuracy regarding the role that Christianity played in our country’s founding.
You go on to say that It is “immaterial if the Founding Fathers were Buddhist, Christian or atheist. Their religious and/or philosophical underpinnings really don’t impact life in America today.” You could not be more wrong. The truth matters a great deal and that’s why secularists are so intent on rewriting history. You’ve talked about your perspective, well let me share mine. In my opinion, the vast majority of problems that our society faces today is directly attributable to how far our country has drifted from the religious underpinnings of our Founding Fathers. And things will not get better unless and until we as a nation stop drifting from our spiritual foundation and reverse course by both acknowledging God’s role in our founding and implementing steps to once again honor God as a nation.
As we both agree, you have the right to believe whatever you choose to believe. But regarding our nation’s founding, why choose to believe something (the secularists’ revision) that impartial research and study will show to be a lie?
Even more importantly, why would you claim that there is no God? Only a person who has complete and total knowledge would be in the position to make that claim. And obviously that’s not the case for you or me or Callie or Zale.
Regarding the first paragraph of your reply to Zale, I pray that God will do only what He can do which is to open your heart and mind so that you will come to realize that it is your current “perspective” that is wrong and your current “premise” that is “patently false.”
Dan Nunley
I’m going to sign off here because our perspectives are so far apart that debate is pointless. You all can work to better Christianize America. I will continue to work for the exact opposite. In fact, I’ll go one step further. While I have no love for your belief system, I’m actually opposed to all religion and would love society to get to the point in which people can pull themselves away from these fantasies to live in the here and now world.
Just think. Less war. Less oppression. Less hate. Less suffering. Less separation.
Rambling Taoist aka Trey Smith,
One final comment from me before you go. War, oppression, hate, suffering and separation are not caused by true religion or faith, These things are the result of people throughout history who have twisted, distorted and misused true faith and religion. But even then, the amount of misery caused in the name of religion over the past 2,000 years pales in comparison to the carnage wreaked over just the past 200 years by secularists such as Hitler and Stalin, to name only two of many godless murderers.
Believe it or not, we agree on “religion.” Religion is simply man reaching for God. and there are many different religious paths from which to choose, but they all have one thing in common. They are all about works that man must do in order to attain a better spiritual life. However, each and every one of these paths will ultimately be unsuccessful because sinful man is incapable of doing anything to bring himself close to God. Christianity is set apart from every other “religion” because it is solely about God reaching down to man. Christianity is all about what God did for man when man was incapable of doing anything on his own.
Finally, don’t fool yourself by claiming that you are opposed to all religion. Guess what? Taoism IS religion. I know that many want to claim Taoism is just philosophy, but it’s just another among many false religions. Here’s a link to a book on the subject. http://tinyurl.com/l4te58
I wish you well.
Dan Nunley
Dan,
I must respond to this. There is no question that there is a religious form of Taoism. That said, I don’t subscribe to it. The religious form was invented in the 1st or 2nd century AD. The philosophical form, however, has been around for thousands of years.
As a philosophical Taoist, I don’t believe in God, the devil, sin, angels, heavenly grace, creeds, rituals, and the concept of salvation — all necessary components of religion.
One other note. Hitler was a Christian (a rather sick one) and Stalin was raised in an orthodox Christian home, even being awarded a grant to seminary. So, both had Christian influences.
Rambling Taoist aka Trey Smith,
What is “religion” in today’s world?
My personal opinion is that not every religion revolves around the the belief in God or the supernatural. In fact, I disagree with your premise that religion requires a belief in “God, the devil, sin, angels, heavenly grace, creeds, rituals, and the concept of salvation.” Rather, I believe that there are many secular religions that include an individual’s view of the world and his/her place in it. This religion/worldview would contain some specification of an over-all purpose or point of the world and an indication of how the individual fits into it. The religion is more or less the total organization of that person’s life based on the world view. And thus we have the religion of atheism, and the religion of environmentalism, and on and on and on.
Regarding Hitler & Stalin. I don’t want to spend a lot of time on this so let me cut right to the chase. You said there was some Christian influence in their lives. Maybe so. But just because a person receives Christian influence doesn’t make that person a Christian.
Anyone who claims that Hitler or Stalin were Christians is ignorant regarding true biblical Christianity.
The problem of saying “Hitler was a Christian” is that the statement means everything or nothing depending on the meaning of “Christian.” For example, if you poll Americans today as to whether or not they are a Christian, you’ll get an overwhelming positive response. But the problem is that the vast majority of these Christians are just “cultural Christians” not “biblical Christians.”
A person is not a Christian because his mother or father or grandmother was a Christian. A person is not a Christian because he went to Sunday School and church or even seminary. A person is a Christian because he/she has acknowledged they are a sinner, have repented of their sins, have received God’s forgiveness through the atoning death of Jesus, believe in the resurrection of Jesus, surrender their lives to God’s control, and are from then on directed by God’s own Holy Spirit. When this occurs, the presence of God in a person’s life cannot be ignored or denied. The true Christian will walk the Christian walk, not just talk the Christian talk.
Hitler, cunning and devious politician that he was, leading a nominally Christian country like 1930s Germany, made many references to religion and faith and Christianity in his speeches. But he had an agenda. He was being disingenuous to the German people in order to build and maintain his popularity. But don’t be fooled today as the Germans of the 1930s were by Hitler’s false claim to be a Christian.
The book of James clearly makes the point that it is useless to claim to have faith without corresponding deeds. (James 2:14-26). And the Apostle Paul described very clearly what the fruit of the Holy Spirit actually looks like in the life of a true biblical Christian. (Galatians 5:22-23). Hitler’s life doesn’t match up to the biblical description of a Christian. In fact, his cruel and vicious actions prove the falseness of his claim to be a Christian. Based on the evidence, the only legitimate conclusion an unbiased person can reach is that Hitler was not at any stage of his life a Christian.
Ditto for Stalin.
Here’s a link to a good article about Hitler’s religion written by an agnostic named Edward Bartlett-Jones who is also a historian of 20th Century Germany. http://www.bede.org.uk/hitler.htm
A little bit of research and study will reveal mountains of evidence that establish with absolute certainty that Hitler and Stalin were tyrants, despots, murderers and enemies of Christianity.
Trey:
The fact that you are still at it tells me that you are still trying to justify your beliefs to yourself. Everyone of us is created in God’s image and with that there is an inherent need to have a relationship with Him.
You seem to think that you are enlightened since you have chosen “Taoism” even though you say its not your religion? (Didn’t you choose your screen name? … I’m just sayin…. )
Dan’s right. Religion is not the key. It’s the giving of your life over to Jesus.
There’s several stories in scripture of those that ran from their calling, much like you are doing. Paul did it. Jonah did it. Moses too. However, in the end they did what they knew in their heart was right, which was follow him. (Not Tao… sounds like an ingredient… anyway…)
And that brings me to another thought. You said you didn’t believe in Hell or Satan. Interesting. You can also jump off a building and not believe in gravity, the ground, sudden impacts or pain, but that does not change your acute post impact reality. “Just as man is destined to die once, and after that to face judgment …” Heb 9:27 Are you ready to be wrong?
If Dan, Callie, myself and (now, whether you like it or not) 66% of the planet are wrong about Jesus, big deal. We died after having lived good, wholesome lives of “Loving God” and “those around us like ourselves”. If you’re wrong, that sudden impact is really going to hurt. So, are you really ready to be wrong?
Z
Correction.. its 33% and not 66%.
Well, this has been interesting reading!
I, for one, am grateful that there is religious freedom in our country and that we can all believe and worship (or not worship) according to the dictates of our own conscience. Let people worship how, where, or what they may.
And BTW, I am part of that percentage of Christian believers.
Hi Kween,
Thanks for continuing to read and comment on my blog! I always look forward to hearing your thoughts!
Callie